Youth

[Purple & Green]

Here’s a theoretical question:

would you accept lesser results for a period if Hibs played more home grown players?

feel free to wade in with opinions.

 

[Jack]

How much lesser and how long?

Its a balance.

I'd hate to see us burn youngsters the way we did not so long ago.

 

[moathibby]

If it put top 6 in jeopardy.No.One or two games try one or two out.

 

[Chester Perry]

If it meant watching better football id be ok with it. You need decent youth to do it though, do we have that.

 

[greencol]

Too many inexperienced lads and it becomes an experiment, with a great result one game followed by an absolute no show next time out.
2 or 3 maximum. And against certain teams.
Doig has had a break, but last night showed he still has a way to go to become a solid, first choice player.
Gullan needs more starts in order for JR to find out if he can do the job for 90 minutes.
Coming on with 10-20 minutes to go full of running and scoring is one thing.
Doing the same for a whole game on a wet, shitey night in Hamilton is a different caper.

 

[Purple & Green]

Research across leagues appears to suggest it’s a false premise. That is, there is no material drop off in results in playing more younger players.

Just to throw a curve ball into the mix.

I think what the excellent responses so far show that there are several key aspects to consider.

 

[Hammi]

Only if we were in a position where all we had was a youth team.
In theory there'd be something to build on and grow, but in reality they'd all just keep leaving.
I don't think we'd hold a team long enough to see things improve.

I'm all for players coming through and becoming part of the squad, staking and claiming their place.
But a handful at any one time should be the target.

 

[Jack]

Just a wee reminder that even at the best clubs with the best academies they reckon 1 graduate a season becoming close to a regular is a success.

 

[sockyboy]

No doubt youngster's from our own academy are cut a bit more slack from the fans. Mistakes are generally accepted as part of the learning process but I doubt a poor run of form would be (or should be) accepted by paying customers (us), regardless of the reasons.
You can't just fill a team with youngster's, there has to be a majority of experienced players. How would you expect a young player to progress if he wasn't learning from teammates?
There's also the demoralising factor of playing in a struggling team for a prolonged period to consider.

 

[Purple & Green]

This season, I don't think playing Josh Doig over Lewis Stevenson or Sean Mackie has had a tangible effect on results - I don't think it's made results better or worse, and I don't think it has affected our overall points total say more than 1 point either way.

Josh Doig has now some first team experience, and is further along a career path to play at a high level than he was 6 months ago. He's more likely to be a first team regular in the future.

 

[Zab]

A lot depends on the needs of the team. If you’re looking at it from purely development perspective, rather than say an injury/form crisis, then the balance of the team is important.

If the team is struggling to create chances, chucking a young lad up front does him no favours. However if the chances are being crested, I think it’s good to give a young striker the chance (especially if the senior forwards aren’t taking them)

Central midfield is probably the toughest area to break through physically, young players need to be strong enough to cope with the midfield battle that most Premiership games have.

Ultimately it comes down to attitude and being physically ready, more than ability. Jason Cummings was full of confidence and swagger, Ryan Porteous was strong and up for the challenge. Fraser Murray probably has more ability than both but hasn’t broken though (yet), that’s telling.

 

[Purple & Green]

Just a wee reminder that even at the best clubs with the best academies they reckon 1 graduate a season becoming close to a regular is a success.

The very best ones have stated intentions to integrate 2 players into the first team from every age group. That's 100% upping the target. They do it too. It's complex how they manage it, and it's very different how the stakeholders get involved.

Strangely one of the most articulate people on this subject is Austin McPhee - I say strangely, because as one who talks about it so well he made a complete hash of it at Hearts.

 

[Purple & Green]

A lot depends on the needs of the team. If you’re looking at it from purely development perspective, rather than say an injury/form crisis, then the balance of the team is important.

If the team is struggling to create chances, chucking a young lad up front does him no favours. However if the chances are being crested, I think it’s good to give a young striker the chance (especially if the senior forwards aren’t taking them)

Central midfield is probably the toughest area to break through physically, young players need to be strong enough to cope with the midfield battle that most Premiership games have.

Ultimately it comes down to attitude and being physically ready, more than ability. Jason Cummings was full of confidence and swagger, Ryan Porteous was strong and up for the challenge. Fraser Murray probably has more ability than both but hasn’t broken though (yet), that’s telling.

All very pertinent - Scotland as a country is chucking top quality left backs out like a factory just now, but there's only one can play each game for the National team.

 

[Robert Barone]

I always think Hibs fans in general (but not exclusively) have a more optimistic view of our youths development and impact on the first team due to the extraordinary anomaly that was the golden generation of Thomson, Brown, Rioirdan, Whittaker, O'Connor etc. While I dont expect we all think we'll produce players of that calibre en masse again with the impact they had I do think it colours opinions on chucking in young players and expecting 2 or 3 to make an impact over a season.

We all love to see young players coming through..over the next few seasons I expect it will happen more for financial reasons as we adjust to the post covid downturn in revenues. Personally, I prefer to see them given blocks of games then taken out when form drops to work on any understandable weaknesses that first team football have exposed. They can then be reintroduced and gradually work towards holding the position permanently.

 

[Greenmachine]

It is incredibly difficult for a young player to come into the first team at a big club like Hibs and establish themselves as a regular starter. The jump from development team football to first team football is massive...ask any of the young players who have played both. The difference in the pace and intensity of the game is the main thing, followed by the physical demands and increased fitness levels required. Some young players can make the step up and adapt. Ryan Porteous is the main example of this, but even now he still struggles at times with his concentration and awareness.

I know Hibs have made big efforts in recent years to improve how they develop young players and get them better prepared for first team football and dealing with the expectations of fans etc. I often think we as fans expect too much too soon from young players. A player like Fraser Murray is a good example. There is no doubt in my mind having seen Fraser playing many times at development team level that the lad is a natural, and very talented. He has struggled with the jump to top league first team football and the extra demands both physically and mentally that is required...especially at a club like Hibs playing at the top end of the scottish game. He has now been loaned out to Dunfermline at a lower level and the hope is that he comes back to Hibs a more robust player who can make a big contribution to our club in the years to come.

So many fall by the wayside though. Another factor of course is attitude. Many young players think they have made it once they get picked for the first team. They don't have to work any more, because they have achieved what they always wanted and have a bit of fame. The reality is they have only just started in a new job with very tough demands where only the strong survive.

It's been encouraging this season to see players like Sean Mackie and Josh Doig getting into the first team. Jamie Gullan needs to be give a run in the first team because I really do think he has the ability and the right attitude to be a big player for us.

 

[Robert Barone]

It is incredibly difficult for a young player to come into the first team at a big club like Hibs and establish themselves as a regular starter. The jump from development team football to first team football is massive...ask any of the young players who have played both. The difference in the pace and intensity of the game is the main thing, followed by the physical demands and increased fitness levels required. Some young players can make the step up and adapt. Ryan Porteous is the main example of this, but even now he still struggles at times with his concentration and awareness.

I know Hibs have made big efforts in recent years to improve how they develop young players and get them better prepared for first team football and dealing with the expectations of fans etc. I often think we as fans expect too much too soon from young players. A player like Fraser Murray is a good example. There is no doubt in my mind having seen Fraser playing many times at development team level that the lad is a natural, and very talented. He has struggled with the jump to top league first team football and the extra demands both physically and mentally that is required...especially at a club like Hibs playing at the top end of the scottish game. He has now been loaned out to Dunfermline at a lower level and the hope is that he comes back to Hibs a more robust player who can make a big contribution to our club in the years to come.

So many fall by the wayside though. Another factor of course is attitude. Many young players think they have made it once they get picked for the first team. They don't have to work any more, because they have achieved what they always wanted and have a bit of fame. The reality is they have only just started in a new job with very tough demands where only the strong survive.

It's been encouraging this season to see players lie Sean Mackie and Josh Doig getting into the first team. Jamie Gullan needs to be give a run in the first team because I really do think he has the ability and the right attitude to be a big player for us.

Good points..do clubs take too short term a view on youngsters? I can understand why a manager (for reasons of self preservation) prioirtises results over developing youth in the first team. We seem to be be showing a bit of patience with Mackie and Murray thankfully.

Id also agree with your point on Murray. He strikes me as a lad with all the tools, vision, first touch, can score. As with many younger players I'd only question his mentality..he doesn't get involved enough when he's had his (all be it brief) chances to shine. He tended to be on the periphary of the game but tidy enough when involved. Hopefully his loan at The Pars (who I think are an ideal club for him atm) will see him learn how to impose himself on games more. I'm interested to see how he does.

 

[Greenmachine]

Another problem...which has already been touched on by some posters...is that managers at our level are under huge pressure to get results every week, and therefore will almost always go for the most experienced option rather than take a risk throwing youngsters out there.

A manager has to win matches, that's his job. He gets the sack if he doesn't.

A bigger league would help with regard to developing young players IMO. Less pressure and less of a threat of relegation.

Slightly off subject but kind of related, I think our old friend league reconstruction with be paying us a visit again towards the end of this season. Mainly due to the inevitable fall-out from this massively damaging Covid-19 season.

 

[Purple & Green]

A lot depends on the needs of the team.

We've taken young players on loan from Rangers in the past season. This has me wondering if we cannot get the best options in, and are picking up players after the big English sides and Celtic and Rangers have had their pick.

 

[Zab]

We've taken young players on loan from Huns in the past season. This has me wondering if we cannot get the best options in, and are picking up players after the big English sides and Celtic and Huns have had their pick.

I think Hibs look internally first - is there a player in the squad or the academy who can play that role (and is ready to do so)? If so, I don’t think we go into the transfer market.

Beyond that, transfer policy and how signings are made is a totally different discussion.

 

[sockyboy]

It is incredibly difficult for a young player to come into the first team at a big club like Hibs and establish themselves as a regular starter. The jump from development team football to first team football is massive...ask any of the young players who have played both. The difference in the pace and intensity of the game is the main thing, followed by the physical demands and increased fitness levels required. Some young players can make the step up and adapt. Ryan Porteous is the main example of this, but even now he still struggles at times with his concentration and awareness.

I know Hibs have made big efforts in recent years to improve how they develop young players and get them better prepared for first team football and dealing with the expectations of fans etc. I often think we as fans expect too much too soon from young players. A player like Fraser Murray is a good example. There is no doubt in my mind having seen Fraser playing many times at development team level that the lad is a natural, and very talented. He has struggled with the jump to top league first team football and the extra demands both physically and mentally that is required...especially at a club like Hibs playing at the top end of the scottish game. He has now been loaned out to Dunfermline at a lower level and the hope is that he comes back to Hibs a more robust player who can make a big contribution to our club in the years to come.

So many fall by the wayside though. Another factor of course is attitude. Many young players think they have made it once they get picked for the first team. They don't have to work any more, because they have achieved what they always wanted and have a bit of fame. The reality is they have only just started in a new job with very tough demands where only the strong survive.

It's been encouraging this season to see players like Sean Mackie and Josh Doig getting into the first team. Jamie Gullan needs to be give a run in the first team because I really do think he has the ability and the right attitude to be a big player for us.

Ollie Shaw is also a perfect example of a young lad who was great at every level but just couldn't adapt to first team football in the SPL. Real shame when that happens. I wonder if the old reserve league was better for young players. They played in an environment which was littered with older players, and as a result were a bit more streetwise when eventually put in the first team.

 

[Weehibbydrew]

Ollie Shaw is also a perfect example of a young lad who was great at every level but just couldn't adapt to first team football in the SPL. Real shame when that happens. I wonder if the old reserve league was better for young players. They played in an environment which was littered with older players, and as a result were a bit more streetwise when eventually put in the first team.

I note Oli has started knocking them in for Ross County.

 

[broonieboy]

I’d be happy for us to forego the Betfred cup IF we had a core of say 3/4 players coming through at the same time and it merited them playing together at the same time, but then we’ve no had such a number for a while. It’s always been one or two


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[sockyboy]

I note Oli has started knocking them in for Ross County.

I did not know that. Good for him, wish him well

 

[Weehibbydrew]

I did not know that. Good for him, wish him well

Two in his last two games, at least. Hope he kicks on.

 

[sockyboy]

Two in his last two games, at least. Hope he kicks on.

Think its actually 4 in his last 4 mate. Very good record by anyone's standards.

 

[Purple & Green]

Think its actually 4 in his last 4 mate. Very good record by anyone's standards.

Hibs didn't want to let him go permanently, and preferred a loan, but I believe Shaw forced the issue because he wanted more games and he didn't think being tied to Hibs would help him in the longer term.

 

[sockyboy]

Hibs didn't want to let him go permanently, and preferred a loan, but I believe Shaw forced the issue because he wanted more games and he didn't think being tied to Hibs would help him in the longer term.

The boy was probably right to go and get more game time. Might end up our loss, but thats football I guess. I'm right in thinking he went under Heckingbottoms reign eh?

 

[Weehibbydrew]

Hibs didn't want to let him go permanently, and preferred a loan, but I believe Shaw forced the issue because he wanted more games and he didn't think being tied to Hibs would help him in the longer term.

Think we said at the time that we retained an interest in him.

 

[Weehibbydrew]

The boy was probably right to go and get more game time. Might end up our loss, but thats football I guess. I'm right in thinking he went under Heckingbottoms reign eh?

No, Jack Ross

 

[Green Sleeves]

The likes of Aberdeen and Motherwell youth systems are developing young talent they sell on for millions. Money to reinvest. We stopped doing that a long time ago.

 

[sockyboy]

No, Jack Ross

Ah, right. Ta

 

[Forzahibs]

I have very high hopes for Gullan , seems to score good goals which require clever movement or a deft touch (or both actually) the 15 -20 minutes he's getting at the moment are i think a good weapon against tiring defenders and will hopefully swell his confidence toward more game time

 

[1875]

I have very high hopes for Gullan , seems to score good goals which require clever movement or a deft touch (or both actually) the 15 -20 minutes he's getting at the moment are i think a good weapon against tiring defenders and will hopefully swell his confidence toward more game time

I am with you D, there is a player there and he does well when he comes on. Bit of a brick shithouse too, much like Mackie.

 

[Forzahibs]

I am with you D, there is a player there and he does well when he comes on. Bit of a brick shithouse too, much like Mackie.

Minus the curtains of course

 

[HenryLB]

Having more homegrown players as a policy isn't quite the same as playing more youth players IMO, at least it shouldn't be after a few years. Athletic Bilbao presumably don't field a team full of 19 year olds.

Personally I see the point of having a good youth setup to develop first team players and sell others on to make money, but beyond those goals I'm not sure I can see the point of doggedly chasing 'homegrown' talent all the time. It seems limiting.

 

[hibbybilly]

Minus the curtains of course

He’ll need curtains if he wants tae put himself in the shop windae.