Tory with a point?

[greencol]

I'd better get busy slagging off blacks , gays,transgender, huns, soapdodgers, women,Muslims, catholics and proddys before the 1st or I'm gonnae be right in the shit

Ye missed oot the English...

 

[paigntonhibby]

Ye missed oot the English...

Oops

 

[greencol]

Oops

Wrong thread.....

 

[egb_hibs]

On your last point, stuff can be robust here, but I think it's done in a spirit of live and let live. But even here there's been some pile ons, often involving people who don't post so much. Can I be confident It wouldn't go down the reporting route?

I don't think pile ons are the point here. There are views frequently expressed that dissent from today's unholy writ. That would be enough I suspect, judging by thr harassment that the likes of Rowling endure.

It would only take a blue hair or two to join the forum and they could make continuance in its present form difficult.

 

[HaarlemShuffler]

I don't think pile ons are the point here. There are views frequently expressed that dissent from today's unholy writ. That would be enough I suspect, judging by thr harassment that the likes of Rowling endure.

It would only take a blue hair or two to join the forum and they could make continuance in its present form difficult.

There are more views here now than not from those who dissent from the unholy writ, or more accurately today's wholly unwritten screed.

But that's not surprising on an almost 100% male-dominated forum with plenty Syd James, emotionally less intelligent emulators.

Should be a good test. I'd best bung some more cash into the Bounce coffers just in case!

 

[egb_hibs]

There are more views here now than not from those who dissent from the unholy writ, or more accurately today's wholly unwritten screed.

But that's not surprising on an almost 100% male-dominated forum with plenty Syd James, emotionally less intelligent emulators.

Should be a good test. I'd best bung some more cash into the Bounce coffers just in case!

I think there's a couple of hate crimes in there H

 

[1875]

The SNP can go fck themselves.

You know I often disagree with your political opinions, but on this I agree 100%.

 

[Jack K]

Except it wasn’t 'weeded out'. It was recorded without the person being complained about knowing. This is not a no consequence action. As wellnas potential employment implications (for example through enhanced disclosure) are you really comfortable with the police being the arbiter of hate with no due process?

It was weeded out.
Someone complained to the Police about a comment made by MSP Murdo Fraser on social media that they considered a hate crime.
They have obviously been told that the comment in question didn't constitute a crime.
As they have to do in the modern era the Police will have recorded the complainers details and their complaint and issued them with an incident number. That would be the end of the matter.

Hundreds of whack jobs contact the Police everyday with all manner of ridiculous complaints. Amongst them will be ridiculous complaints about public figures including politicians. If this was a credible complaint the Police would have contacted Murdo Fraser.

 

[egb_hibs]

It was weeded out.
Someone complained to the Police about a comment made by MSP Murdo Fraser on social media that they considered a hate crime.
They have obviously been told that the comment in question didn't constitute a crime.
As they have to do in the modern era the Police will have recorded the complainers details and their complaint and issued them with an incident number. That would be the end of the matter.

Hundreds of whack jobs contact the Police everyday with all manner of ridiculous complaints. Amongst them will be ridiculous complaints about public figures including politicians. If this was a credible complaint the Police would have contacted Murdo Fraser but it must have been well short of that threshold.

It was recorded, Kafka style, as a ‘non crime hate incident’ or some such.

You must be retired if you don’t recognise that as an employability death knell.

 

[Archie]

It was weeded out.
Someone complained to the Police about a comment made by MSP Murdo Fraser on social media that they considered a hate crime.
They have obviously been told that the comment in question didn't constitute a crime.
As they have to do in the modern era the Police will have recorded the complainers details and their complaint and issued them with an incident number. That would be the end of the matter.

Hundreds of whack jobs contact the Police everyday with all manner of ridiculous complaints. Amongst them will be ridiculous complaints about public figures including politicians. If this was a credible complaint the Police would have contacted Murdo Fraser.

But it was recorded against his name and he only found out about it by accident.

Tory MSP to sue police for recording tweet about non-binary people as hate incident

Murdo Fraser accuses Police Scotland of acting ‘outrageously and unlawfully’ and demands the force to delete the record of the incident

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Jack K]

But it was recorded against his name and he only found out about it by accident.

Tory MSP to sue police for recording tweet about non-binary people as hate incident

Murdo Fraser accuses Police Scotland of acting ‘outrageously and unlawfully’ and demands the force to delete the record of the incident

www.telegraph.co.uk

Your missing the point. The incident is recorded formally by the Police for reasons of transparency. It will state that no crime has been committed and importantly it will document who made the complaint and the crime type classified so that it can be easily searched for.
Folk regularly complain to the police about footballers, actors, writers, politicians, authors, tv personalities, football referees, music videos, tv programmes, the SFA, football clubs etc etc.
The Police won't contact public figures every time a whack job makes a ridiculous complaint about them.

P.S. your article is behind a paywall.

 

[Archie]

Folk regularly complain to the police about footballers, actors, writers, politicians, authors, tv personalities, football referees, music videos, tv programmes, the SFA, football clubs etc.
They don't contact public figures every time a whack job makes a ridiculous complaint about them.

But they should if they are recording it as a non-crime hate incident against someone's name.

 

[Jack K]

The public hysteria about this updated law brings to mind this Stewart Lee clip

 

[Jack K]

But they should if they are recording it as a non-crime hate incident against someone's name.

Police Scotland have stated "Hate incidents are not recorded against alleged perpetrators".


Anyone would think an election is taking place in the next 9 months the way Murdo Fraser is going on ...

Never mind it's nearly Saturday and i'm sure Shrink and a few other Hibs supporters will shout their support for poor Mr Fraser at Ibrox where he will be supporting his beloved Rangers. Meanwhile i'll pray for the poor oppressed soul.

I must admit his current fate has me a little concerned.
In 1971 at the age of 11 the Police took my name after I was caught playing football in contravention of a No Ball Games sign.
In light of Tory Murdo's nasty experience I suspect plod still have my heinous transgression recorded and this is what has blighted my professional career at significant moments over the years.
Better get a freedom of information request fired off soonest to find out for sure.

 

[egb_hibs]

The public hysteria about this updated law brings to mind this Stewart Lee clip

Not a comedian who will be overly concerned by this bill perhaps. The establishment’s court jester.

 

[greencol]

Not a comedian who will be overly concerned by this bill perhaps. The establishment’s court jester.

I thought Frankie Boyle was the establishment court jester?
Maybe I'm on the wrong side of the tracks.

 

[egb_hibs]

I thought Frankie Boyle was the establishment court jester?
Maybe I'm on the wrong side of the tracks.

He's another one, will do anything for a pat on the head these days. Lets be honest most of those who get a tv contract are pretty much the same.

However if he dips into his back catalogue he could be in trouble.

Stewart Lee is a different league though. Always surprises me when I encounter fans who aren't old Etonians or whatever.

 

[greencol]

He's another one, will do anything for a pat on the head these days. Lets be honest most of those who get a tv contract are pretty much the same.

However if he dips into his back catalogue he could be in trouble.

Stewart Lee is a different league though. Always surprises me when I encounter fans who aren't old Etonians or whatever.

Have to be honest and say I've never listened to the guy Lee.
Theres a few I dont listen to.
By choice.
McIntyre. Carr.( both versions). Whitehall. Bishop.
Rather come on here and read Hibbybillys stuff.........

 

[egb_hibs]

Have to be honest and say I've never listened to the guy Lee.
Theres a few I dont listen to.
By choice.
McIntyre. Carr.( both versions). Whitehall. Bishop.
Rather come on here and read Hibbybillys stuff.......

I concur with the sentiment. In fact I've given up on TV and radio comedy entirely.

As someone observed much of the BBC stuff is intended to provoke applause for loyalty to the party line, rather than laughter.

Lee writes a truly cringeworthy column in the Guardian though. I mean it's like someone has given Adrian Mole a column.

 

[Archie]

Police Scotland have stated "Hate incidents are not recorded against alleged perpetrators".


Anyone would think an election is taking place in the next 9 months the way Murdo Fraser is going on ...

Never mind it's nearly Saturday and i'm sure Shrink and a few other Hibs supporters will shout their support for poor Mr Fraser at Ibrox where he will be supporting his beloved Rangers. Meanwhile i'll pray for the poor oppressed soul.

I must admit his current fate has me a little concerned.
In 1971 at the age of 11 the Police took my name after I was caught playing football in contravention of a No Ball Games sign.
In light of Tory Murdo's nasty experience I suspect plod still have my heinous transgression recorded and this is what has blighted my professional career at significant moments over the years.
Better get a freedom of information request fired off soonest to find out for sure.

Clearly you don't think it's an issue. Many others do. The fact it's Murdo Fraser is irrelevant.

 

[Sancho Panza]

Your missing the point. The incident is recorded formally by the Police for reasons of transparency. It will state that no crime has been committed and importantly it will document who made the complaint and the crime type classified so that it can be easily searched for.
Folk regularly complain to the police about footballers, actors, writers, politicians, authors, tv personalities, football referees, music videos, tv programmes, the SFA, football clubs etc etc.
The Police won't contact public figures every time a whack job makes a ridiculous complaint about them.

P.S. your article is behind a paywall.

So why record it at all if no crime has been committed? Should I phone Police Scotland and tell them my house wasn't burgled last night?
The issue here is the "hate" appellation. Yeah, no crime was committed but you are clearly some sort of bigot. Can't see how that would affect your employment prospects, no sirree bob.

 

[Jack K]

So why record it at all if no crime has been committed? Should I phone Police Scotland and tell them my house wasn't burgled last night?
The issue here is the "hate" appellation. Yeah, no crime was committed but you are clearly some sort of bigot. Can't see how that would affect your employment prospects, no sirree bob.

Your example isn't comparing apples with apples.

It would only be the same if you reported to the Police that your house had been *burgled" but when they attended they found there were no signs of forced entry and therefore concluded that your home had not been the subject of a crime. The incident report would be written up to reflect that and no crime report would be raised.
Similarly no crime report was raised in the incident reported by the numpty about the social media of Murdo Fraser.
It should be noted that a Police incident report and a crime report are not the same thing and I think this is confusing a lot of folk.
An incident report is in effect an incident log
P.S. * there is no such thing as burglary in Scotland, it's called housebreaking

As regards why record it, it's about tranparency and accountability. An incident report is in effect an incident log
If you reported to the Police that your neighbour had cannabis plants in his window the Police clerk would naturally note your name, address etc, your story and the name and address of your neighbour. The clerk would then create an incident report including all the details. When cops were despatched to attend the incident their names would be added to the incident report. If when they had attended at the house they found it was actually cheese plants in the window that information would be added to the incident report.
You would be informed. Obviously no crime report would be raised.
There would then be a retrievable record of you reporting the incident, stating when and where you reported it, what and who you reported, who noted your report, the identities of the cops that attended the house, when they arrived at the house and when they left, their findings and that you had been informed of the result.
Without an incident report for a non crime incident there would be nothing to show you had ever made a report.

 

[egb_hibs]

Your example isn't comparing apples with apples.
It would only be the same if you reported to the Police that your house had been *burgled" but when they attended they found there were no signs of forced entry and therefore concluded that your home had not been the subject of a crime. The incident report would be written up to reflect that and no crime report would be raised.
Similarly no crime report was raised in the incident reported by the numpty about Murdo Fraser.

* there is no such thing as burglary in Scotland, it is called housebreaking

It should be noted that a Police incident report and a crime report are not the same thing and I think this is confusing a lot of folk.

From what I gather the closer analogy is they have concluded that a burglary that took place was not a crime.

This actually seems to be the way they are moving on some cases of theft now they have more important business policing thoughts.

 

[Archie]

Your example isn't comparing apples with apples.
It would only be the same if you reported to the Police that your house had been *burgled" but when they attended they found there were no signs of forced entry and therefore concluded that your home had not been the subject of a crime. The incident report would be written up to reflect that and no crime report would be raised.
Similarly no crime report was raised in the incident reported by the numpty about Murdo Fraser.

* there is no such thing as burglary in Scotland, it is called housebreaking

It should be noted that a Police incident report and a crime report are not the same thing and I think this is confusing a lot of folk.

Do you accept that there is any issue in keeping a non crime hate incident register, with the name of the person who was accused, where the accused person may not even know they have been accused? Do you accept that there is any issue that this logged information could be accessed as part of an enhanced disclosure process, with potentially negative implications for the person going through the disclosure process?

 

[Jack K]

From what I gather the closer analogy is they have concluded that a burglary that took place was not a crime.

This actually seems to be the way they are moving on some cases of theft now they have more important business policing thoughts.

Do you accept that there is any issue in keeping a non crime hate incident register, with the name of the person who was accused, where the accused person may not even know they have been accused? Do you accept that there is any issue that this logged information could be accessed as part of an enhanced disclosure process, with potentially negative implications for the person going through the disclosure process?

I have now answered the rest of the points raised in Sancho Panza's post with an example explaining why an incident report is required even in cases where the finding is that no crime has been committed.

 

[Archie]

I have now answered the rest of the points raised in Sancho Panza's post with an example explaining why an incident report is required even in cases where the finding is that no crime has been committed.

But you haven't answered the points I've raised. They are simple yes or no questions.

 

[Doc Shrink]

No smoke without fire.

Obviously a wrong ‘un but insufficient evidence to nail the bastard.
Just wait.

 

[Jack K]

But you haven't answered the points I've raised. They are simple yes or no questions.

A non-crime hate incident is any incident perceived by the victim, or any other person, to be motivated either entirely or partly by malice and ill-will towards a person or group based on the victim’s actual or perceived membership of one or more of the characteristics, but which does not constitute a criminal offence. Non-crime hate incidents are not recorded against the other party.

Most things are more complex than a simple yes or no no and it's been 10 years since I worked in related fields so i don't know current working practices and as such I don't know definitively what systems are accessed as part of the enhanced disclosure process .
The poster Beagle was a cop maybe he can provide you with the definitive answers you are after.
All I can do is condense what I wrote above into the most salient points.

A Police incident report and a crime report are not the same thing and I think this is confusing you.

An incident report is in effect an incident log.
It is a retrievable record, it states
who reported the incident,
when and where it was reported,
what was reported,
who noted the report,
the identities of the cops that attended, time they were informed, time they arrived and left any location and their findings
the result - crime report, no crime, arrest etc

Without an incident report for a non crime incident there would be nothing to show that a report or enquiry had ever made which could result in accusations of a cover up etc. There are a whole host of other issues which non recording could cause but I'll leave them out for the sake of brevity.

 

[egb_hibs]

I have now answered the rest of the points raised in Sancho Panza's post with an example explaining why an incident report is required even in cases where the finding is that no crime has been committed.

But it wasn't just not a crime. It wasn't a hate incident.

 

[Jack K]

Do you accept that there is any issue in keeping a non crime hate incident register,

There is no such thing as a non crime hate incident register. There is an incident log.

with the name of the person who was accused, where the accused person may not even know they have been accused?

In the Murdo Fraser example there was never an accused. Without a crime you can't have an accused. All you had was a dafty member of the public who didn't know what constituted a crime.

Do you accept that there is any issue that this logged information could be accessed as part of an enhanced disclosure process, with potentially negative implications for the person going through the disclosure process?

As stated before I don't know definitively what systems are currently accessed as part of the enhanced disclosure process you speak of.
I'm sure if you do some enquiry of your own online you could find this out.
It would be interesting to hear how you get on.

 

[Jack K]

But it wasn't just not a crime. It wasn't a hate incident.

It was a hate incident.

A non-crime hate incident is any incident perceived by the victim, or any other person, to be motivated either entirely or partly by malice and ill-will towards a person or group based on the victim’s actual or perceived membership of one or more of the characteristics, but which does not constitute a criminal offence. Non-crime hate incidents are not recorded against the other party.

The complaint from the person that reported it was therefore a hate incident hence it being classified as such in the incident log.

 

[egb_hibs]

It was a hate incident.
A non-crime hate incident is any incident perceived by the victim, or any other person, to be motivated either entirely or partly by malice and ill-will towards a person or group based on the victim’s actual or perceived membership of one or more of the characteristics, but which does not constitute a criminal offence. Non-crime hate incidents are not recorded against the other party.

The complaint from the person that reported it was therefore a hate incident hence it being classified as such in the incident log.

It's not a hate incident. I don't care what the law says, the law being the problem here.

It was an spurious report and that's how it should be recorded.

 

[Jack K]

It's not a hate incident. I don't care what the law says, the law being the problem here.

It was an spurious report and that's how it should be recorded.

It doesn't matter what Martin thinks.
The Law doesn't run according to what Martin thinks
The Universities don't run according to what Martin thinks
The World doesn't run according to what Martin thinks
Martin needs to get over himself

 

[egb_hibs]

It doesn't matter what Martin thinks.
The Law doesn't run according to what Martin thinks
The Universities don't run according to what Martin thinks
The World doesn't run according to what Martin thinks
Martin needs to get over himself

The entire point of this thread is people, me included, disagreeing with the direction the law is going in.

The world, incidentally, certainly doesn’t run the way that this mentalism would prefer.

Forget the law for a minute, what do you think; was it a hate incident or not ? Again, not your interpretation of the law, how you view the incident.

 

[kaimendhibs]

This country is gubbed. Not only are we being run by the stasi, booze tax, higher taxes than rest of UK, mental hate crime bill.
Whats worse, people supporting and defending it.
My dad died 18 years ago, he told me that SNP were Scottish torys.
Sad to say, he was wrong....
They are worse

 

[Archie]

There is no such thing as a non crime hate incident register. There is an incident log.

In the Murdo Fraser example there was never an accused. Without a crime you can't have an accused. All you had was a dafty member of the public who didn't know what constituted a crime.

As stated before I don't know definitively what systems are currently accessed as part of the enhanced disclosure process you speak of.
I'm sure if you do some enquiry of your own online you could find this out.
It would be interesting to hear how you get on.

I mean why not come out and say you support the approach? You've gone from denial that it's an issue to dismissing the issue, trivialising it and calling critics hysterical. You do seem very invested in defending it, so the floor is yours.

 

[Young porty]

I suspect that this will go the way of enforcing 20mph zones. Big fanfare at first, then dropped to the bottom of the in tray. The clear-up rate is bad enough without adding this to it. A sad state of affairs IMHO will have the loons down to the station to complain. Just another reason to divide the country and distract voters.

 

[Sancho Panza]

 

[egb_hibs]

If this thread is in any way representative it seems Scots of every persuasion are united in objection to this.

One headline example - a Rowling case for example - before the GE and the SNP, and especially the toxic greens, are in trouble methinks.

What a hill to die on.

 

[Cavalier]

If this thread is in any way representative it seems Scots of every persuasion are united in objection to this.

One headline example - a Rowling case for example - before the GE and the SNP, and especially the toxic greens, are in trouble methinks.

What a hill to die on.

Totally unrecognisable from the party i joined, and supported, from age 18. I resigned my membership 3 years ago (Now 54 y.o.) and WILL NOT be loaning them my vote later this year.

Sad really.