Should Scott Allan Start On Thursday Night?

[Pistol1981...]

Because the teams better than us usually sign their defenders from outwith Scotland.
Sure we've had this conversation? Paul has had opportunities to leave Hibs and chose to stay.

Porto has been left out the Scotland squad too, I assume you want rid of him too?

Face it, if he wasn't good enough he'd be playing for Dundee or Kilmarnock right now.
He's at his level, a top 4 scottish club.
No better, no worse.

Yeh that's correct. So am I correct in saying that VVD , Andy Robertson , Kieran Tierney , Scott McKenna and maybe even Jason Kerr all went to better teams from teams outwith Scotland ???

You keep saying that Paul had opportunities to leave Hibs but as you say , we've had this chat and you still can't provide me with any concrete evidence that this is the case.. All reports in papers and speculation........

Don't want rid of Porto by any stretch of the imagination. He will get better in time and I'd like to think he'll be involved in the international fold sooner rather than later....

Hibs have been in the top 4 only once whilst Hanlon has been playing for Hibs.. Not sure that comment carries much clout being honest..

 

[Pistol1981...]

So how do you explain his excellent stats Pete?
Just made up to piss you off?
Did we not have the third best defensive record in the league last season….. with him playing virtually every week?
Come on, you can tell us the real reason you have it in for him. Nobody will laugh.
Honest.

The stats are there and you can't complain about them but if they are that good and PH is such a good player as they make him out to be then why has nobody tried to sign him ??

As I've said before excellent players do not hang about at Hibs let alone in Scotland for 14 seasons , neither are they constantly over looked at International level by the manager....

 

[Hammi]

Nothing to do with the internet, I’m basing it on what I’ve seen this season. JDH and Newell are similar players, but JDH is an upgrade from what I’ve seen - he shows for the ball more, passes it forward more, recycles position better when a forward pass.

The problem playing JDH and Newell together, as we saw on Saturday, is that neither of them break forward. It results in us being too one paced. That’s why for me it has to be Magennis and one of them. Magennis is the most complete midfielder at the club, I think he’s better as one of the central two.

Stats aren’t everything for me, having a 100% pass success rate doesn’t mean much if not one of those passes impacts the game in a meaningful way. Same goes for crosses, dribbles, shots etc. Only tells part of the story.

I didn't think you were one of the Internet crowd. P&G either for that matter.
But the more people that say he's a weak link, the more it catches on and its just not true.

I also don't think JDH has had enough time to prove if he is an upgrade or not, alot of the best work he's done with the ball, for me is playing one twos with Joe, he gives the ball to Joe to go and do the work. Or plays a long ball forward.
I think he's a good player, but he plays much deeper than Joe and has less of an impact on the final area of the park.

If Scott is breaking into the starting line up, I'd probably agree with playing one of them with Magennis too, but on what I look at, it would be Joe and Kyle.
I am a numbers guy, but stats aren't everything for me either, but if they line up up what I'm seeing I'm gonna lean on them to prove my side though.
I just don't see an area where JDH excels over Joe, not yet anyway.
Early days, plenty time for all that though.

 

[Hammi]

Hibs have been in the top 4 only once whilst Hanlon has been playing for Hibs.. Not sure that comment carries much clout being honest..

Last season, we finished 3rd. Paul was a key component in that finish.
That means he was at the level.
You're only as good as your last season, how good anyone was 3 or 4 or more years ago means zero. That's the joys of improving as a player.

And, to be pedantic, we finished 4th under Neil Lennon, when he was also a key player. Arguably his best season for Hibs.

 

[HenryLB]

What if I told you last season he played more key passes (passes leading to goal scoring opportunities) than any other Hibs player?
Unfortunately the page I use reset for the season so I can't show you, but I did use it for proof last season that he's far more effective going forward than credit is given for.

I can believe that. He was good last season, and for a spell of it arguably our best player. Sometimes I think he's a bit the victim of how he looks on the ball. He comes across slightly more languid and ponderous, maybe because he's taller or possibly it's just the way he moves.

Having said that I really like both JDH and Magennis and I'm pleased we've one area of the pitch where there's a bit of strong competition!

 

[Zab]

I didn't think you were one of the Internet crowd. P&G either for that matter.
But the more people that say he's a weak link, the more it catches on and its just not true.

I also don't think JDH has had enough time to prove if he is an upgrade or not, alot of the best work he's done with the ball, for me is playing one twos with Joe, he gives the ball to Joe to go and do the work. Or plays a long ball forward.
I think he's a good player, but he plays much deeper than Joe and has less of an impact on the final area of the park.

If Scott is breaking into the starting line up, I'd probably agree with playing one of them with Magennis too, but on what I look at, it would be Joe and Kyle.
I am a numbers guy, but stats aren't everything for me either, but if they line up up what I'm seeing I'm gonna lean on them to prove my side though.
I just don't see an area where JDH excels over Joe, not yet anyway.
Early days, plenty time for all that though.

See I think the fact JDH plays slightly deeper than Newell is why he’s a better partner for Magennis, particularly if it’s to accommodate Allan. For me that midfield would be the most balanced. Don’t get me wrong, I think Newell is a good player, and Allan won’t start every game so we have some actual depth and options there.

I just like what I’ve seen of JDH and Magennis this season, they’ve earned the jersey so it’s down to Newell/Allan/Gogic/Hallberg to take the final spot. That can change quickly of course.

 

[Zab]

The stats are there and you can't complain about them but if they are that good and PH is such a good player as they make him out to be then why has nobody tried to sign him ??

As I've said before excellent players do not hang about at Hibs let alone in Scotland for 14 seasons , neither are they constantly over looked at International level by the manager....

Have you got an opinion on anything other than Paul Hanlon? Not having a go, just that we all get the point that you don’t rate him so might be good to hear an opinion about something else Hibs related.

 

[Pistol1981...]

Last season, we finished 3rd. Paul was a key component in that finish.
That means he was at the level.
You're only as good as your last season, how good anyone was 3 or 4 or more years ago means zero. That's the joys of improving as a player.

And, to be pedantic, we finished 4th under Neil Lennon, when he was also a key player. Arguably his best season for Hibs.

Take away last season and the season under Lennon , the past remaining 12 seasons have been utter guff.. Eye bleeding football , numerous mid table finishes and a relegation chucked in for good measure along with three dreadful seasons stuck in a championship.. Hanlon a key component in that period also wouldn't you say ???

You as a player are only as good as your last game being perfectly honest..

I will now ask you again , where is the truth in your statement that PH has had offers to leave but he's decided against so. You have also decided to ignore that question along my reply to your line saying that good teams mainly buy players from outside Scotland..

 

[Pistol1981...]

Have you got an opinion on anything other than Paul Hanlon? Not having a go, just that we all get the point that you don’t rate him so might be good to hear an opinion about something else Hibs related.

Ask away..

 

[Hammi]

See I think the fact JDH plays slightly deeper than Newell is why he’s a better partner for Magennis, particularly if it’s to accommodate Allan. For me that midfield would be the most balanced. Don’t get me wrong, I think Newell is a good player, and Allan won’t start every game so we have some actual depth and options there.

I just like what I’ve seen of JDH and Magennis this season, they’ve earned the jersey so it’s down to Newell/Allan/Gogic/Hallberg to take the final spot. That can change quickly of course.

I think we're in the same spot, just with the opposite player. I think Joe would naturally sit deeper if he was alongside Kyle.
Same way JDH does alongside JN.

Competition is good, the middle 3 will pick itself soon enough. I still think its a 3 rather the the 2-1 in the middle, Kyle plays alongside them more than ahead of them imo.
I think we've a good range of player in the middle of the park.

 

[Hammi]

Take away last season and the season under Lennon , the past remaining 12 seasons have been utter guff.. Eye bleeding football , numerous mid table finishes and a relegation chucked in for good measure along with three dreadful seasons stuck in a championship.. Hanlon a key component in that period also wouldn't you say ???

You as a player are only as good as your last game being perfectly honest..

I will now ask you again , where is the truth in your statement that PH has had offers to leave but he's decided against so. You have also decided to ignore that question along my reply to your line saying that good teams mainly buy players from outside Scotland..

So take away the 2 seasons that we were top 4?
Orite.

Our journey in the championship wasn't dreadful, far from it.
Won the Scottish Cup. Should've won the league cup. Consistently beat Premiership sides.

Those other seasons you're talking about, were a piss poor side made up of far more players than Paul Hanlon. Who was better than many of those around him.

Me and others gave you proof of offers to leave last time we had this discussion, you just don't wanna believe it because there's no official statement from the club.

And, you've misquoted me.
I meant Rangers and Celtic using defenders from outwith Scotland.

 

[Hammi]

I can believe that. He was good last season, and for a spell of it arguably our best player. Sometimes I think he's a bit the victim of how he looks on the ball. He comes across slightly more languid and ponderous, maybe because he's taller or possibly it's just the way he moves.

Having said that I really like both JDH and Magennis and I'm pleased we've one area of the pitch where there's a bit of strong competition!

I like all 3 of them, and Gogic despite giving him (rightfully) grief over a few quite important errors.
I like Scott Allan too, I'm delighted he's able to still play football and wants to prove he can still play at the level required consistently, even if I'm unsure at the moment, but he's got time time prove it.

 

[tayside hibee]

The stats are there and you can't complain about them but if they are that good and PH is such a good player as they make him out to be then why has nobody tried to sign him ??

As I've said before excellent players do not hang about at Hibs let alone in Scotland for 14 seasons , neither are they constantly over looked at International level by the manager....

Name a few other centre half’s who have passed through our club in the last ten years who are superior to Hanlon?
In fact , any others who have played for anybody else in Scotland except the bigots.

 

[Pistol1981...]

So take away the 2 seasons that we were top 4?
Orite.

Our journey in the championship wasn't dreadful, far from it.
Won the Scottish Cup. Should've won the league cup. Consistently beat Premiership sides.

Those other seasons you're talking about, were a piss poor side made up of far more players than Paul Hanlon. Who was better than many of those around him.

Me and others gave you proof of offers to leave last time we had this discussion, you just don't wanna believe it because there's no official statement from the club.

And, you've misquoted me.
I meant Rangers and Celtic using defenders from outwith Scotland.

So what we are saying is we will only count the good seasons and forget about the crap ones ?? Yeh ok then.. Good logic that pal...

Doesn't matter if the players were piss poor or not , he was part of it.....

Won the Scottish cup , never won the league cup final but did well to get to the final to start with but failed miserably to even make the playoff final let alone get promoted on not once but two occasions losing to utter shite like Alloa , QOTS and Dumbarton on the way.....

The offers you and others gave me were an interest from Aberdeen with no concrete bids on the table at any point.... Paper talk is what it's called.. It is not that I don't want to believe it , it's that I don't listen to hearsay when it comes to players moving between clubs...

 

[Pistol1981...]

Name a few other centre half’s who have passed through our club in the last ten years who are superior to Hanlon?
In fact , any others who have played for anybody else in Scotland except the bigots.

None of them , hence the fact they weren't around for very long....

 

[Hammi]

So what we are saying is we will only count the good seasons and forget about the crap ones ?? Yeh ok then.. Good logic that pal...

Doesn't matter if the players were piss poor or not , he was part of it.....

Won the Scottish cup , never won the league cup final but did well to get to the final to start with but failed miserably to even make the playoff final let alone get promoted on not once but two occasions losing to utter shite like Alloa , QOTS and Dumbarton on the way.....

The offers you and others gave me were an interest from Aberdeen with no concrete bids on the table at any point.... Paper talk is what it's called.. It is not that I don't want to believe it , it's that I don't listen to hearsay when it comes to players moving between clubs...

So we only look at the bad seasons instead?
Works both ways pal.

Ignore the fact that he's improved as a player over that time? That his better seasons coincide with some of our best seasons?

Paul Hanlon said himself that he had offers to leave after the Scottish Cup win and chose not to go.
That's not hearsay, that's from the horses mouth.

Anyway, can't debate with a broken record. So I'll leave you to it.

 

[tayside hibee]

None of them , hence the fact they weren't around for very long....

So , you agree then that Hanlon is the top end of what we might reasonably expect ?

 

[Doc Shrink]

Ask away..

Would you be interested in purchasing a Paul Hanlon Testimonial t-shirt? I have a spare one - still in the original wrapping?

And can you clarify what 'proof' would be acceptable to you that Paul had other offers, since apparently Kenny Millar writing it and Paul Hanlon saying it is deemed to be 'hearsay'.

 

[Purple & Green]

I think there's an argument here, what we basing it on?
Because Joe has better passing, tackles, interceptions and dribbles than both.
Magennis has the goals
JDH wins more aerial battles.


Magennis positionally is the replacement
JDH statistically is

Joe's a victim of the Internet imo.

I’ve not looked at his numbers, but I feel he’s being shoehorned into a position as a defensive mid that isn’t his strength. He’s neat and tidy but maybe a bit lightweight, I don’t think he’s of the quality of the players in the other positions in the team. That’s not to say he’s rubbish but I don’t think he’s good enough for us.

maybe doesn’t help not having a regularly fit wide left player for him to bond with. Actually….if we had any friggin cover in defensive mid Newell would make an excellent option to replace the perennially injured Murphy wide left.

 

[Doc Shrink]

Joe played wide left under Hecky as I recall. I think it was about the 70th minute of his fifth game that he went past a player.
He was feckin hopeless there.

 

[MSG_07]

Joe played wide left under Hecky as I recall. I think it was about the 70th minute of his fifth game that he went past a player.
He was feckin hopeless there.

Playing out wide was supposed to be his best position according to his ex manager down south. He was p*** poor there for us agreed.

 

[Hammi]

I’ve not looked at his numbers, but I feel he’s being shoehorned into a position as a defensive mid that isn’t his strength. He’s neat and tidy but maybe a bit lightweight, I don’t think he’s of the quality of the players in the other positions in the team. That’s not to say he’s rubbish but I don’t think he’s good enough for us.

maybe doesn’t help not having a regularly fit wide left player for him to bond with. Actually….if we had any friggin cover in defensive mid Newell would make an excellent option to replace the perennially injured Murphy wide left.

That's fair, although I think he's being largely underrated here.
I dont think he's a defensive midfielder either, but he plays just ahead of either Gogic or JDH in that position.
I still see what we're doing as more of a 433 with 1 holding than a 4231, but its all the same, a midfield with 3 playing central.

I think he plays he hole between defence and attack quite well, he'd be on 3 or 4 assists already if we were more prolific up top.

I dont think he can play wide left though, he started for us there and was completely ineffective, mightve been down to PH and his tactics, but Joe dictates all our games.
Could maybe do with more urgency in his play, but he's effective on the ball.

There's not alot between him and JDH for me, I just think he just about edges it.

 

[1875]

I dont think he has that 3-5 yard burst to take him past opponents as Murphy does.
If he plays it has to be centre midfield for me.

To quote Scott Allan at the weekend "I think sometimes I can show my best stuff wide on the left-hand side". I would give it a go.

 

[cleanyman]

I'd play him. Only won 3/6 leagues games with what has been a kind fixture list

Lets mix it up when we can

 

[Purple & Green]

Joe played wide left under Hecky as I recall. I think it was about the 70th minute of his fifth game that he went past a player.
He was feckin hopeless there.

That's fair, although I think he's being largely underrated here.
I dont think he's a defensive midfielder either, but he plays just ahead of either Gogic or JDH in that position.
I still see what we're doing as more of a 433 with 1 holding than a 4231, but its all the same, a midfield with 3 playing central.

I think he plays he hole between defence and attack quite well, he'd be on 3 or 4 assists already if we were more prolific up top.

I dont think he can play wide left though, he started for us there and was completely ineffective, mightve been down to PH and his tactics, but Joe dictates all our games.
Could maybe do with more urgency in his play, but he's effective on the ball.

There's not alot between him and JDH for me, I just think he just about edges it.

On a more general point, not just Joe, I think our goals against column suggests our system isn’t working defensively.

 

[Doc Shrink]

On a more general point, not just Joe, I think our goals against column suggests our system isn’t working defensively.

Absolutely.

It's the number of headed goals we give away now...... quite a sea change from last season where we gave away none in league games. We seem to have gone back to a familiar mass panic any time balls are launched into the box, particularly in the last ten minutes. I think the fans were blamed for transmitting the fear at one point....
Maybe stopping the crosses coming in would help?

I'd maybe give Doig a wee rest too. His inexperience can be an issue, and Lewis is a better defender.

Also it would bring back the Hanlon/Stevenson only picked because they made a charitable donation story back which always cheers me up.

 

[Hammi]

On a more general point, not just Joe, I think our goals against column suggests our system isn’t working defensively.

Agree with that.

How many of the goals against have come from a cross? Most of them anyway?

Fullbacks clearly can't deal with them, or defend properly from the opposite side when the balls in the air. McGinn and Doig are guilty of both areas.
Macey won't claim a ball in his 6yard box.
Paul, Daz or Porto shouldn't have to be winning headers inside that area imo.

Even when we double up the cross still comes in.

We're open for a counter attack, every single time.
It's not good enough. Not even close.

 

[Zab]

To quote Scott Allan at the weekend "I think sometimes I can show my best stuff wide on the left-hand side". I would give it a go.

I think Allan can be effect there. Only concern is I don’t want him tracking back too much, but Doig isn’t good enough defensively (yet) to cope all game without cover. Possibly Newell or JDH would need to be made aware supporting Doig is part of their remit, as that keeps Allan further forward where he’s going to do his best work.

 

[hibbybilly]

I’ve not looked at his numbers, but I feel he’s being shoehorned into a position as a defensive mid that isn’t his strength. He’s neat and tidy but maybe a bit lightweight, I don’t think he’s of the quality of the players in the other positions in the team. That’s not to say he’s rubbish but I don’t think he’s good enough for us.

maybe doesn’t help not having a regularly fit wide left player for him to bond with. Actually….if we had any friggin cover in defensive mid Newell would make an excellent option to replace the perennially injured Murphy wide left.

He was pish when he played there before, everybody thought we bought a dud.

 

[greencol]

To quote Scott Allan at the weekend "I think sometimes I can show my best stuff wide on the left-hand side". I would give it a go.

Fair enough M, but his best stuff wouldn't be similar to Murphys. For me, he doesnt have that acceleration over 5 yards.
Of course, if he's happy playing there that's the job half done. If he performs and we win then job done.

 

[hibbybilly]

Absolutely.

It's the number of headed goals we give away now.... quite a sea change from last season where we gave away none in league games. We seem to have gone back to a familiar mass panic any time balls are launched into the box, particularly in the last ten minutes. I think the fans were blamed for transmitting the fear at one point....
Maybe stopping the crosses coming in would help?

I'd maybe give Doig a wee rest too. His inexperience can be an issue, and Lewis is a better defender.

Also it would bring back the Hanlon/Stevenson only picked because they made a charitable donation story back which always cheers me up.

There might be something in that, last year, nae fans, nae headed goals, this year …

 

[Pistol1981...]

So we only look at the bad seasons instead?
Works both ways pal.

Ignore the fact that he's improved as a player over that time? That his better seasons coincide with some of our best seasons?

Paul Hanlon said himself that he had offers to leave after the Scottish Cup win and chose not to go.
That's not hearsay, that's from the horses mouth.

Anyway, can't debate with a broken record. So I'll leave you to it.

No we look at both sides of the argument and the majority of poor seasons eclipses the good ones. You simply cannot deny that ???

You saying he's improved is a matter of opinion and I acknowledge he improved in the early days but over the last 10 seasons there's been very little if any improvement. A period at the start last season where he pushed on and rightly so deserved his Scotland call up and a brief period under Lennon..

Yeh lets leave it.

 

[Smurf]

I voted no. I would prefer to see him come on to play a part. I'm not convinced he can be match fit?

 

[Hibees-Mad]

So what we are saying is we will only count the good seasons and forget about the crap ones ?? Yeh ok then.. Good logic that pal...

Doesn't matter if the players were piss poor or not , he was part of it.....

Won the Scottish cup , never won the league cup final but did well to get to the final to start with but failed miserably to even make the playoff final let alone get promoted on not once but two occasions losing to utter shite like Alloa , QOTS and Dumbarton on the way.....

The offers you and others gave me were an interest from Aberdeen with no concrete bids on the table at any point.... Paper talk is what it's called.. It is not that I don't want to believe it , it's that I don't listen to hearsay when it comes to players moving between clubs...

 

[Pistol1981...]

Name a few other centre half’s who have passed through our club in the last ten years who are superior to Hanlon?
In fact , any others who have played for anybody else in Scotland except the bigots.

Ok then lets go with that. He says that he spoke to a few people on more than one occasion but it wasn't enough to make him leave Hibs//

That then tell me that the clubs he was talking to weren't anything special and it would've been considered a side step more than a step forward.

If a more attractive team with better wages or even playing at a higher level were one of those sides then I am sure it would've been given some serious thought..

 

[Pistol1981...]

Ok then lets go with that. He says that he spoke to a few people on more than one occasion but it wasn't enough to make him leave Hibs//

That then tell me that the clubs he was talking to weren't anything special and it would've been considered a side step more than a step forward.

If a more attractive team with better wages or even playing at a higher level were one of those sides then I am sure it would've been given some serious thought..

 

[Hammi]

Give it up eh

 

[Bofahibee]

So Butcher told the whole squad they could go before he got bulleted himself?

 

[Hammi]

So Butcher told the whole squad they could go before he got bulleted himself?

He told them all while there was still a bunch of games to play. From the moment he walked in the door I believe.
Little wonder they chucked it.

 

[Zab]

I voted no. I would prefer to see him come on to play a part. I'm not convinced he can be match fit?

How does he become match fit if he doesn’t get game time? I’d start him against Dundee United, it would be a good test and indication of where he’s at.