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Media George Floyd just another in a long line.

On slightly different track, a friend of mine was on a tour in Kenya and the black guide spoke about the huge problem with black on black slave trade centuries ago and while some of that may have been through fear of the whites and to win favour, he stated it was just something that even then was not out of the ordinary. History is good to learn from but few people want to explore the whole and prefer to stick to a part. None of that justifies what Whites did btw, but it does point to Human's being flawed no matter what race, creed or colour
Every dominant society in history has enslaved the weaker ones
Much as it goes against some peoples agenda whites didnt invent slavery or were the sole perpetrators.
 
Good.Flounce off.
I certainly enjoyed my break. Was long enough for me to just accept that for some folk, concepts like reason, nuance, and proportionality should never be allowed to so much as temper their virtuous outrage. My conclusion was that it's best to just let them carry on with their righteous, more-radical-than-thou posturing and not get so irked by it.

Warm regards :)
 
I certainly enjoyed my break. Was long enough for me to just accept that for some folk, concepts like reason, nuance, and proportionality should never be allowed to so much as temper their virtuous outrage. My conclusion was that it's best to just let them carry on with their righteous, more-radical-than-thou posturing and not get so irked by it.

Warm regards :)

Nice to have you back though Aggie.
 
I certainly enjoyed my break. Was long enough for me to just accept that for some folk, concepts like reason, nuance, and proportionality should never be allowed to so much as temper their virtuous outrage. My conclusion was that it's best to just let them carry on with their righteous, more-radical-than-thou posturing and not get so irked by it.

Warm regards :)
Welcome back Aggie, nowt special happened while you were away, Chookie Embra slid oot and we still huvnae signed Leigh, apart fae that, nowt budšŸ˜šŸ‘
 
What's the opposite of posturing?Being an activist all my life?
 
Welcome back Aggie, nowt special happened while you were away, Chookie Embra slid oot and we still huvnae signed Leigh, apart fae that, nowt budšŸ˜šŸ‘
You didn't miss any funny jokes from William
 
Every dominant society in history has enslaved the weaker ones
Much as it goes against some peoples agenda whites didnt invent slavery or were the sole perpetrators.
White British Imperialism instituted the first concentration camps in Modern history. That went well.
file-20190218-56246-3rfis.jpg


BIG G
 
Hibs didn't invent football but we still play it.
 
So when a glaring case of injustice being turned over when even the President of the United States makes a statement saying how important a moment it has been. Someone on here in order to deflect away from the guilty charge has to resort to 'whataboutery'.?
 
So when a glaring case of injustice being turned over when even the President of the United States makes a statement saying how important a moment it has been. Someone on here in order to deflect away from the guilty charge has to resort to 'whataboutery'.?
However Angus, I think my Comrades based in the USA have put the result and Biden's statement into perspective.


BIG G
 
Hibs didn't invent football but we still play it.
Dont be silly now
 
So when a glaring case of injustice being turned over when even the President of the United States makes a statement saying how important a moment it has been. Someone on here in order to deflect away from the guilty charge has to resort to 'whataboutery'.?
Who ?
 
White British Imperialism instituted the first concentration camps in Modern history. That went well.
View attachment 4829


BIG G
Where did I say " every dominant society except Britain "
 
Every dominant society in history has enslaved the weaker ones
Much as it goes against some peoples agenda whites didnt invent slavery or were the sole perpetrators.
This is such a ridiculous argument. Slavery has always and continues to exist but Europeans turned it into an industrial machine and tied is closely to their own development, to try to claim commonality with other examples of slavery is like saying Amazon is equivalent to the local shop, or the breakaway superleague 12 are just doing what Queen of the South do to Stranraer.
 
This is such a ridiculous argument. Slavery has always and continues to exist but Europeans turned it into an industrial machine and tied is closely to their own development, to try to claim commonality with other examples of slavery is like saying Amazon is equivalent to the local shop, or the breakaway superleague 12 are just doing what Queen of the South do to Stranraer.
Rubbish
 
like many of your responses that a powerful rebuttal, well done
 
This is such a ridiculous argument. Slavery has always and continues to exist but Europeans turned it into an industrial machine and tied is closely to their own development, to try to claim commonality with other examples of slavery is like saying Amazon is equivalent to the local shop, or the breakaway superleague 12 are just doing what Queen of the South do to Stranraer.
The chinese were pretty good at it as were the mongols ,Egyptians, arabs, Russians and every other " civilisation" there's ever been. In actual fact Europeans came to it rather late in the day, 17th century.
Had the means been available to any other civilisation I'm pretty sure they would have taken advantage. Many royal navy sailors lost their lives abolishing slavery but that doesnt fit the agenda that we're responsible for all the worlds ills. Focus should be on the slavery that still exists rather than what happened in the past which nobody alive today is responsible for.
 
The chinese were pretty good at it as were the mongols ,Egyptians, arabs, Russians and every other " civilisation" there's ever been. In actual fact Europeans came to it rather late in the day, 17th century.
Had the means been available to any other civilisation I'm pretty sure they would have taken advantage. Many royal navy sailors lost their lives abolishing slavery but that doesnt fit the agenda that we're responsible for all the worlds ills. Focus should be on the slavery that still exists rather than what happened in the past which nobody alive today is responsible for.
Indeed these countries did practice slavery, as did the Romans. But then industrialisation happens and capitalism develops and the European powers begin to dominate the globe and use their global presence to industrialise slavery, by transferring slaves across the globe based on their 'business' needs. To say 'they would have done the same' is pointless, they didn't, therefore the focus is on those who did. To say so isn't an 'agenda', its to suggest our historical amnesia is at best unhelpful.
 
Indeed these countries did practice slavery, as did the Romans. But then industrialisation happens and capitalism develops and the European powers begin to dominate the globe and use their global presence to industrialise slavery, by transferring slaves across the globe based on their 'business' needs. To say 'they would have done the same' is pointless, they didn't, therefore the focus is on those who did. To say so isn't an 'agenda', its to suggest our historical amnesia is at best unhelpful.
There is no historical amnesia, it happened, it's those that are wanting to pull down statues that are trying to erase history. As I've said before you cant lay 21st century values on the past, many many things that we find abhorrent today were considered perfectly normal at the time so to lay " blame" or to feel that present day politicians should have to apologise for something that was considered normal and happened centuries ago is bollocks.
The Arabs made a business out of slavery long before the europeans did, and are still at it but I dont see anybody asking them to apologise, but we'll just bend over, hold our hands up and say it was all our fault because everybody's too shit scared to offend anybody and be called a racist.
I watched the Floyd verdict on the telly and and the copper was rightly found guilty, then Floyd's family came on and said what a lovely guy he was and how he taught them respect and everybody loved him. The guy was a horrible violent thug who lived a life of crime , he didnt deserve to die the way he did but people are scared to call him what he was cause they'll be called racist.
I've got absolutely no doubt that somebody on here will be calling me a racist shortly simply because i hold an opinion that differs from most of you.
 
There is no historical amnesia, it happened, it's those that are wanting to pull down statues that are trying to erase history. As I've said before you cant lay 21st century values on the past, many many things that we find abhorrent today were considered perfectly normal at the time so to lay " blame" or to feel that present day politicians should have to apologise for something that was considered normal and happened centuries ago is bollocks.
The Arabs made a business out of slavery long before the europeans did, and are still at it but I dont see anybody asking them to apologise, but we'll just bend over, hold our hands up and say it was all our fault because everybody's too shit scared to offend anybody and be called a racist.
I watched the Floyd verdict on the telly and and the copper was rightly found guilty, then Floyd's family came on and said what a lovely guy he was and how he taught them respect and everybody loved him. The guy was a horrible violent thug who lived a life of crime , he didnt deserve to die the way he did but people are scared to call him what he was cause they'll be called racist.
I've got absolutely no doubt that somebody on here will be calling me a racist shortly simply because i hold an opinion that differs from most of you.
I don't agree in pulling down all these statues, what I do think is having a statue is a way of honouring people, so there is a real question as to why some people are honoured and what we do with those who don't. I also think its a cop out to say 'its was the way things were done then' as a way to suggest that people doing it were not therefore wrong, or monsters. Lots of people opposed slavery at the time, but the powerful capitalists and the church over-rode them. And your nonsense about Arab countries, if you want your moral compass to be set according to theocrats and despots then fill your boots. Its not for me.
Re floyd, how do you know he was a horrible violent thug. There are people on the Bounce who have been involved in violence, does that make them reducible to being violent thugs. Of course not, people are complex and can behave in different and sometimes contradictory ways, so perhaps a lot of the time he was lovely and taught respect and was also occasionally involved in violence.
Re racism, I've not idea if you are racist, but you're certainly spouting the same stuff they do.
 
The chinese were pretty good at it as were the mongols ,Egyptians, arabs, Russians and every other " civilisation" there's ever been. In actual fact Europeans came to it rather late in the day, 17th century.
Had the means been available to any other civilisation I'm pretty sure they would have taken advantage. Many royal navy sailors lost their lives abolishing slavery but that doesnt fit the agenda that we're responsible for all the worlds ills. Focus should be on the slavery that still exists rather than what happened in the past which nobody alive today is responsible for.
The Qatar World Cup opens up a whole new can of worms IMO. A state that still actively participates in actual slavery. Will footballers hold the courage of their convictions and refuse to play? They have to and I really hope they will, even if it damages their marketability, ā€œbrandā€ etc. Sorry to go off topic folks!
 
I don't agree in pulling down all these statues, what I do think is having a statue is a way of honouring people, so there is a real question as to why some people are honoured and what we do with those who don't. I also think its a cop out to say 'its was the way things were done then' as a way to suggest that people doing it were not therefore wrong, or monsters. Lots of people opposed slavery at the time, but the powerful capitalists and the church over-rode them. And your nonsense about Arab countries, if you want your moral compass to be set according to theocrats and despots then fill your boots. Its not for me.
Re floyd, how do you know he was a horrible violent thug. There are people on the Bounce who have been involved in violence, does that make them reducible to being violent thugs. Of course not, people are complex and can behave in different and sometimes contradictory ways, so perhaps a lot of the time he was lovely and taught respect and was also occasionally involved in violence.
Re racism, I've not idea if you are racist, but you're certainly spouting the same stuff they do.
No moral compasses involved re the Arabs it's an example how people are more concerned at what happened 3 or 4 hundred years ago than what is happening today, why are rentamob not rampaging outside the UAE and Saudi embassy demanding justice and an end to the slave like conditions of their foreign workers. How many fans , with views like yourself will happily go and sit in the football stadia at the world cup that many of these workers died building.
I think many fans of a certain generation have been involved in violence, including myself, but it was always against people who were fighting back, I've never held a gun to a defenceless pregnant woman's belly and I'd be shocked if anybody else on here has, he was not a nice man he was a thug.
 
Sorry to go off topic folks!
Jings I wouldn't be worrying about that, I don't think this thread has ever actually been ON topic. It's one big whataboutery rabbit hole.
 
The Qatar World Cup opens up a whole new can of worms IMO. A state that still actively participates in actual slavery. Will footballers hold the courage of their convictions and refuse to play? They have to and I really hope they will, even if it damages their marketability, ā€œbrandā€ etc. Sorry to go off topic folks!
I agree though very much doubt much will be said about it I'm afraid, just as there was quiet about big clubs rigging things to their advantage for years before the recent proposals that sparked opposition.
 
No moral compasses involved re the Arabs it's an example how people are more concerned at what happened 3 or 4 hundred years ago than what is happening today, why are rentamob not rampaging outside the UAE and Saudi embassy demanding justice and an end to the slave like conditions of their foreign workers. How many fans , with views like yourself will happily go and sit in the football stadia at the world cup that many of these workers died building.
I think many fans of a certain generation have been involved in violence, including myself, but it was always against people who were fighting back, I've never held a gun to a defenceless pregnant woman's belly and I'd be shocked if anybody else on here has, he was not a nice man he was a thug.
And what is also frequent is people that never campaign against, or even for, anything start shouting and balling to those who do 'why aren't you protesting about that'. You will find that it has tended to be people 'with views like myself' who have done the protesting against Saudi and UAE etc, esp around arms sales. I dare say when 'we' were doing that you were probably saying something like 'why aren't you pretesting about China'.
The point is on the latter paragraph that Floyd like many others could likely have been a lovely man at some times and not at others. You have spend some time trying to minimise what was done to him by focussing on his character. Oh, and to say that football violence only involved people fighting back is nonsense, people were jumped all the time every weekend in Edinburgh
 
he didnt deserve to die the way he did
Do you mean you think he deserved to die but just not the way he did? Itā€™s kinda weird that your focus in all of this is on what the brothers of a murder victim would say about their dead brother.

From the outset for me the issue was never about George Floyd. It was about the fact that a police officer chose to kill him rather than arrest him and that there has always been a lack of accountability for the police. Itā€™s about the fact that many police here in the USA do not value and respect the public.

If you want law and order rather than anarchy then the legal process cannot be based around whether the victim of the crime is a jerk or not.
 
And what is also frequent is people that never campaign against, or even for, anything start shouting and balling to those who do 'why aren't you protesting about that'. You will find that it has tended to be people 'with views like myself' who have done the protesting against Saudi and UAE etc, esp around arms sales. I dare say when 'we' were doing that you were probably saying something like 'why aren't you pretesting about China'.
The point is on the latter paragraph that Floyd like many others could likely have been a lovely man at some times and not at others. You have spend some time trying to minimise what was done to him by focussing on his character. Oh, and to say that football violence only involved people fighting back is nonsense, people were jumped all the time every weekend in Edinburgh
Good point, never been much of a protester myself perhaps because I didn't feel passionate about issues..worries me some times my attitude The again I have also done a fair bit of fund raising for things or people I cared for so not all bad
 
Good point, never been much of a protester myself perhaps because I didn't feel passionate about issues..worries me some times my attitude The again I have also done a fair bit of fund raising for things or people I cared for so not all bad
Protesting is easy and seldom seems to achieve much whereas positive actions always make the world a better place.
 
Floyd like many others could likely have been a lovely man at some times and not at others. You have spend some time trying to minimise what was done to him by focussing on his character.
Irrespective, though, surely it's beyond argument that the guy was a violent criminal? Hence it's hardly surprising that many folk are uncomfortable with him being deified as some kind of martyr.
From the outset for me the issue was never about George Floyd. It was about the fact that a police officer chose to kill him rather than arrest him and that there has always been a lack of accountability for the police. Itā€™s about the fact that many police here in the USA do not value and respect the public.
...whereas this is absolutely the issue, so it's just unfortunate that the figure who has become a totem for it is so demonstrably far from being a "fine upstanding citizen" - it just supplies ammunition for those who wish to minimise the underlying issue.

As an aside, based on my 20-odd years of going back and forth to Texas, I'd say there's a fair argument to be made that the focus on race is in itself not particularly helpful. It's far more to do with a) a general sense that the police can operate with complete impunity, and b) that usually this manifests in socioeconomic geographies in which the prevalence of crime is a far more direct product of socioeconomic factors than race. And before anyone says it, I'm aware that black people in the US are proportionally more likely to be poor, victimised by the police, take part in crime etc.; it's just that the focus on one particular identity might actually help to disguise the real drivers of the problem.
 
Oh, and to say that football violence only involved people fighting back is nonsense, people were jumped all the time every weekend in Edinburgh
I didnt actually say that but hey ho.
 
Do you mean you think he deserved to die but just not the way he did?
Not at all, we're all going to die and he didnt deserve to die like that, which I think you really know I meant
 
Some horrific shit the US has done to black people. Was reading a story about them deliberately infecting black men with syphilis from 1932 to 1972. The only reason it stopped, was the media exposed it. Fuck knows how much longer it would have gone on.

Then read an article about called the Tulsa Greenwood massacre, just horrific. The deeper you dig, the more the US seems like Nazi Germany.
 
And what is also frequent is people that never campaign against, or even for, anything start shouting and balling to those who do 'why aren't you protesting about that'. You will find that it has tended to be people 'with views like myself' who have done the protesting against Saudi and UAE etc, esp around arms sales.
It's amazing what some people find offensive and will protest against , some guy gets killed illegally in america, let's fuckin riot, 100's die in the middle east building football stadia etc, let's protest about arms sales. Sums your politics up I think
 
I didnt actually say that but hey ho.
you said "I think many fans of a certain generation have been involved in violence, including myself, but it was always against people who were fighting back", I said "to say that football violence only involved people fighting back is nonsense" and you said "I didnt actually say that but hey ho."
 
Irrespective, though, surely it's beyond argument that the guy was a violent criminal? Hence it's hardly surprising that many folk are uncomfortable with him being deified as some kind of martyr.

...
To be honest Aggie I have no idea what his background is as it is/was not relevant to the fact he was murdered by a copper

p.s. good to see you back
 
It's amazing what some people find offensive and will protest against , some guy gets killed illegally in america, let's fuckin riot, 100's die in the middle east building football stadia etc, let's protest about arms sales. Sums your politics up I think
You do realise arms kill lots of people don't you, and the regimes that you think we should be protesting against do that a lot, and we give them the hardware to do it. Your view, how can i say this nicely, lacks consistency
 
You do realise arms kill lots of people don't you, and the regimes that you think we should be protesting against do that a lot, and we give them the hardware to do it. Your view, how can i say this nicely, lacks consistency
You dont have to say anything nicely, I dont give a shit , say what you feel. Selling arms to despots is wrong , no arguement, slavery is wrong, no arguement, but you seem very selective in the blame game and what you protest about.
My point is you keep harping back to british slavers 300 years ago and ignore the slavery that is happening today because that doesnt fit your political agenda, you cant blame us privelaged white europeans for that one
 
I agree though very much doubt much will be said about it I'm afraid, just as there was quiet about big clubs rigging things to their advantage for years before the recent proposals that sparked opposition.
I think there's a bit of a difference between the way workers are treated in Qatar and football clubs rigging things
 
You dont have to say anything nicely, I dont give a shit , say what you feel. Selling arms to despots is wrong , no arguement, slavery is wrong, no arguement, but you seem very selective in the blame game and what you protest about.
My point is you keep harping back to british slavers 300 years ago and ignore the slavery that is happening today because that doesnt fit your political agenda, you cant blame us privelaged white europeans for that one
you seem very selective in your criticisms of what other people protest about while not protesting about anything yourself. kind of undermines your attempt to criticise others political actions. And its nonsense as well, are we not justified in protesting against the actions of our own governments given in theory we are meant to be able impact on that?
And I'm not sure what you think my 'political agenda' is, there's your use of that term again. Where do I ignore slavery happening now? I work in an area where one part of the focus is modern slavery in the UK.
 
I think there's a bit of a difference between the way workers are treated in Qatar and football clubs rigging things
so do I, have you been protesting against work conditions in the stadium builds?
 

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