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Corona virus on its own thread.

aggie

Justified Radge
I don't really disagree with much you say but, as you've acknowledged yourself, you don't have an alternative to propose and it's quite easy to argue against something if you don't have to balance it with an argument "for" something.

As I see it there are basically three options:
1. Lockdown and release cycles as the UK has done. Frankly the level of "release" we've had doesn't justify the amount of lockdown we've had in my opinion.
2. Let it run through the population - I reckon that would probably lead to between quarter and half a million dead in the UK, not to mention the chance of new, vaccine resistant or more deadly, variants emerging.
3. "Zero Covid" - which I agree needs a curtailing of liberties which I'm not entirely comfortable with, but I'd take it in exchange for life getting back to near normal. I do wonder whether, if the messaging had been clearer up front and things like the Cummings debacle hadn't happened, would we have managed to pull together better as a population to drive it voluntarily and not need to legislate so much? We'll never know for sure and frankly I doubt it, I don't think the UK population is wired that way.

So whilst I agree you present a compelling case against 3, I personally think it's the "least worst" option. Bottom line is that pandemics are a bit shite and there's no "good" way to deal with them.
What I will say unequivocally is that I prefer to debate it with folk like you, sir. You're right, I don't have the answers.
 

Rocky

Well-Known Radge
What I will say unequivocally is that I prefer to debate it with folk like you, sir. You're right, I don't have the answers.
Likewise, and whilst "enjoy" is probably the wrong word to use about debates on a global pandemic I do find your posts to be very thought provoking and well reasoned so they really make me think and adjust my own views. Think I can confidently state that we're in agreement that it would be great if the whole thing just fucked right off and let us get back to normal!
 

aggie

Justified Radge
Likewise, and whilst "enjoy" is probably the wrong word to use about debates on a global pandemic I do find your posts to be very thought provoking and well reasoned so they really make me think and adjust my own views. Think I can confidently state that we're in agreement that it would be great if the whole thing just fucked right off and let us get back to normal!
Defo!!!
 

hibadelic

Radge-a-Casblanca
It's absolutely facile to blame "British nationalism" - firstly, because it's not as if we're the only Western country to have problems, and secondly, well, as I said, it's totally facile.

The answer to your question "why are we not copying Asia" is, ultimately, people.

1) Experience: this vital component of the Asian response alas simply cannot be replicated. The region’s approach has been shaped by the traumatic memories of other recent epidemics — most notably Sars — which meant that governments were better prepared to react fast and forcefully and populations much more willing to co-operate. As I'm sure ours will be in future years and future pandemics.

2) Compliance: this relates to both experience as above, but also to the general political conditions of normal life. Chang Shan-chwen is convener of the expert advisory panel to the Central Epidemic Command Center, which manages Taipei’s response: “In [China’s] autocratic system, every citizen will stay at home when told so. But this is something which cannot be easily achieved in free and democratic countries.” Quite so.

Back in last March, Singapore banned short-term visitors from entering or transiting through Singapore, limited gatherings to 10 people, banned large events, and closed all bars and entertainment venues. Not so bad, right? We did similar (travel excepted). But they also enforced social distancing of 1 metre, and those who defied the order could be fined up to $10,000 Singapore dollars ($7,000 U.S.) or be arrested and face up to six months in jail. In some cases, both penalties were enforced. The government also used mobile apps, house visits and phone surveillance to monitor the activities of citizens and catch potential violators. Even in sainted NZ, the polis could search your home without a warrant.


Now you might weigh things up and think stuff like that is tolerable, and fair enough. I, though, do not feel admiration for autocratic, authoritarian states in general, and I certainly don't think that the extreme ends of the measures are justified or proportional, and in some cases, not something we should tolerate in any circumstances: it's the thin end of the wedge.

Doubtless you'll brand me a "pampered Westerner", or tell me I'm happy for my granny to die, but I don't care any more. It's how I feel. There's a degree of liberty I consider inviolate, as it is literally a foundation stone of the way we live whether there's a pandemic or not.

British exceptionalism might have been closer to what I meant (I was a few beers in), though the two typically go hand in hand. Sure, it's not the whole story but it played a big part in the early stages of our preparation and strategy.

Yes, dealing with Sars gave Asian countries an edge at the start of last year. That was a year ago and we till haven't learnt much. It's not really good enough to wait for the next pandemic when we can learn for this one.

The compliance argument is only really relevant to the effectiveness of a lockdown. It's a widely used excuse by governments who failed to put in basic disease controlling procedures. Most of the countries you mention barely had or needed lockdowns, certainly not to the extent that we have. Singapore's strong arm approach may have helped them but I think your suggestion that it was required in NZ is off the mark, certainly no-one I know there has complained of such - they're just happy to be living relatively normal lives. Norway or Finland have faired quite well too, proving there's more to this.

Even now we're unable to put in a proper quarantine system for international travel, manage self isolation effectively, have a proper international travel strategy or avoid paying people to sit in crowded restaurants. Other than ruining your annual fortnight in the sun, none of this would infringe on your freedom much. Personally, I'd take it to avoid another lockdown.
 

moathibby

Legendary Radge
PS Rocky, you do know that Sridhar is a "zero Covid" advocate? Also perhaps interesting to note that while her first degree was in biology, her PhD is in politics... In other words, she has no particular expertise in epidemiology, virology, clinical practice or any other subject normally considered relevant to make recommendations about infection control. This has been publicly confirmed by her department head at Edinburgh when directly challenged. I'm not saying she's not worth listening to at all – her 'expertise' is in the politics of global health, societal effects of interventions etc – rather I'm saying that the uncritical way in which many folk seem to accept her proclamations as gospel is also worth evaluating: she is not bound by the same ethical standards as actual medical professionals, precisely because she isn't a medical professional.
Most of the people on independent sage do have a science background and are worth paying attention to.
 

moathibby

Legendary Radge
Most of the people on independent sage do have a science background and are worth paying attention to.
Recent reports have shown that NZ unemployment rate has gone down by 10,thousand in this last year. It has jumped by something like 820 thousand in the UK. So even economically our approach makes no sense.
 

bigmanandy

Legendary Radge
Scientists saying if we don't shut the borders properly then we will be living with this upto 5 years or more with virus mutation continuing, if we do it now it could be year,.
 
New third lockdown in Victoria Australia. Outbreak at an isolation hotel at Melbourne Airport.Seems to be the ultra contagious UK strain.
Alarmingly the proposed rules for isolation hotels in England are weaker in several aspect than at play in Australia. No idea if the rules in the other three countries are the same as England.

BIG G
 

hibadelic

Radge-a-Casblanca
New third lockdown in Victoria Australia. Outbreak at an isolation hotel at Melbourne Airport.Seems to be the ultra contagious UK strain.
Alarmingly the proposed rules for isolation hotels in England are weaker in several aspect than at play in Australia. No idea if the rules in the other three countries are the same as England.

BIG G

Goes to show how much these hotels are needed. Victoria will be in lockdown for a week or two then back to normal. Compare to the UK's hapless approach where we've had major lockdowns and restrictions for a year with no end in sight.
 

Jack

Aulder Than The Internet This Radge
Thread starter
New third lockdown in Victoria Australia. Outbreak at an isolation hotel at Melbourne Airport.Seems to be the ultra contagious UK strain.
Alarmingly the proposed rules for isolation hotels in England are weaker in several aspect than at play in Australia. No idea if the rules in the other three countries are the same as England.

BIG G
I think its an illustration of where most countries have mucked up.

From the very start there's been countries, nearly all on the other side of the world, that have dealt with the crisis much better than the countries who think they know better!

Its almost as if following our own scientific advice has been our downfall where we would have been better following the scientific evidence thrown up by the Far East and beyond and copying them.

Close borders and regions, aggressive track and trace systems etc. but most importantly with these thing act quickly.

The English restrictions on travel from abroad looks like its been designed for BJs dad and the rest of the elite to fuck off to their holiday homes without having to stay in one of these awful Premier Inns with riff raff on their return.
 

Westside Green

Well-Known Radge
I think its an illustration of where most countries have mucked up.

From the very start there's been countries, nearly all on the other side of the world, that have dealt with the crisis much better than the countries who think they know better!

Its almost as if following our own scientific advice has been our downfall where we would have been better following the scientific evidence thrown up by the Far East and beyond and copying them.

Close borders and regions, aggressive track and trace systems etc. but most importantly with these thing act quickly.

The English restrictions on travel from abroad looks like its been designed for BJs dad and the rest of the elite to fuck off to their holiday homes without having to stay in one of these awful Premier Inns with riff raff on their return.
£1750 for a 10 day remand in a premier Inn?
How do the arrive at 175 quid per night I thought hotels had dynamic pricing.
 

Beagle

Donator
New third lockdown in Victoria Australia. Outbreak at an isolation hotel at Melbourne Airport.Seems to be the ultra contagious UK strain.
Alarmingly the proposed rules for isolation hotels in England are weaker in several aspect than at play in Australia. No idea if the rules in the other three countries are the same as England.

BIG G
UK strain? Thae pricks down south are quick enough to label other strains with the country of origin so this particular strain should be referred to worldwide as the English strain. Let them own it.
 

Westside Green

Well-Known Radge
UK strain? Thae pricks down south are quick enough to label other strains with the country of origin so this particular strain should be referred to worldwide as the English strain. Let them own it.
Is this the Kent version? Blame those lorry drivers, migrants or any other scapegoat
 

Beagle

Donator
Is this the Kent version? Blame those lorry drivers, migrants or any other scapegoat
Aye that’s what they call it to try and disguise that it’s yet another English pox foisted on the rest of the world because their self entitled population cannie follow rules.
 

Jack

Aulder Than The Internet This Radge
Thread starter
£1750 for a 10 day remand in a premier Inn?
How do the arrive at 175 quid per night I thought hotels had dynamic pricing.
I just plucked Premier Inn out the sky. I've no idea who they are using but with accommodation, food*, x2 tests, security etc. I wouldn't surprised if it did turn out to be them.

* I don't know what food is or isn't included.

I've looked it up. Food and water is included. If you don't like whats on offer or want more you can buy that directly from the hotel.
 
Last edited:

Westside Green

Well-Known Radge
I just plucked Premier Inn out the sky. I've no idea who they are using but with accommodation, food*, x2 tests, security etc. I wouldn't surprised if it did turn out to be them.

* I don't know what food is or isn't included.
Bread and water. Victorian Values
 

Rocky

Well-Known Radge
I just plucked Premier Inn out the sky. I've no idea who they are using but with accommodation, food*, x2 tests, security etc. I wouldn't surprised if it did turn out to be them.

* I don't know what food is or isn't included.
I suspect it will be Premier Inn, owned by Whitbread who are big Tory supporters / donors. Probably coincidence.
 
£1750 for a 10 day remand in a premier Inn?
How do the arrive at 175 quid per night I thought hotels had dynamic pricing.
The Tories are tied by a thousand strings through family, friends school chums and donors to the travel industry, finance sector, construction industry, gambling industry and many other big boys in their portfolio, while not giving the square root of fuck all for the little guys in those sectors.

Slightly off topic however indicative of them. The huge screaming by them and their pals in the Tory MSM, when the European Commission fucked up, no matter how briefly regarding, a daft threat to put controls on the Irish border to limit the export of vaccines to the UK.
Demonstrated to me a cornered rat, suddenly confronted with, fishermen, farmers and other exporters saying hold fucking on you said Brexit wouldnae effect us.
UK strain? Thae pricks down south are quick enough to label other strains with the country of origin so this particular strain should be referred to worldwide as the English strain. Let them own it.
This uber nationalist, stuff is both daft and boring. Grow up.

BIG G
 

Beagle

Donator
The Tories are tied by a thousand strings through family, friends school chums and donors to the travel industry, finance sector, construction industry, gambling industry and many other big boys in their portfolio, while not giving the square root of fuck all for the little guys in those sectors.

Slightly off topic however indicative of them. The huge screaming by them and their pals in the Tory MSM, when the European Commission fucked up, no matter how briefly regarding, a daft threat to put controls on the Irish border to limit the export of vaccines to the UK.
Demonstrated to me a cornered rat, suddenly confronted with, fishermen, farmers and other exporters saying hold fucking on you said Brexit wouldnae effect us.

This uber nationalist, stuff is both daft and boring. Grow up.

BIG G
Well, say it like it is then. UK implies Scotland is as culpable as England when that’s clearly not the case.
 
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